Classification.......the 2A , Enrollment gap too big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Oldshoes]

Classification is based on student body enrollment in grades 10-12 and used by the WIAA to maintain fair and equal competition between its member high schools. The organization places member schools into one of six tiered classifications based on enrollment ranges: 1B, 2B, 1A, 2A, 3A, and 4A. The enrollment ranges are evaluated by the WIAA Executive Board biennially and finalized for a two-year period.

Current classifications for years 2010 through 2012, as approved by the WIAA Executive Board on January 24, 2010,[2] are as follows:

1B: 0-92 students
2B: 93-207 students
1A: 208-512 students
2A: 513-1085 students
3A: 1086-1303 students
4A: 1304+ students
For the years 2010 through 2012, there are 62 member schools in 1B classification; 62 member schools in 2B classification; 65 member schools in 1A classification; 64 member schools in 2A classification; 67 member schools in 3A classification; and 66 member schools in 4A classification. 23 member schools are not counted because "they do not access postseason play, they have no athletics, they do not meet the WIAA separate alternative high school definition or they do not field at least one team sport outside of a combined program."[2]
This post was edited on 11/13 11:07 AM by Oldshoes

 

[Oldshoes]

Tell me WIAA how the 2A with a the largest enrollment gap by over 500 students is "Fair and Equal" competition??????? Seriously???
This post was edited on 11/13 12:40 PM by Oldshoes

 

[Warrant3]

The largest gap is in 4A. In 4A, the gap between largest and smallest is 1244.

 

[Oldshoes]

Well Warrant that may be, as I didn't find that top end number in my search.......but however you coat it, the 2A or 4A is not "Fair and Balanced" is it?
BTW who is the biggest 4A school and who is the smallest since you have the numbers right there in front of you? And as well do you personally think it is "fair and balanced" for such gaps to exist? Just wondering where you stand on that, which is the intent of my post.

I still believe that the WIAA likes the 60 here, 60 there, and 60 over there split and the pre-ordained playoff seedings!!!



Thanks for the numbers correction on the gap,


Shoes
This post was edited on 11/13 1:05 PM by Oldshoes

 

[Oldshoes]

Oh, Warrant, alot of my posts are to stir up conversation on a website that seems kind of stale at times with minimal participation.

BTW, I belong to a flyfishing website that blows this one out of the water for membership participation. Wouldn't it be nice to get some new and old members to come sit at the table and talk more often about things other than "my school will beat your school" or "who is going to win tonight"?

Cheers

 

[Warrant3]

Marysville-Pilchuck: 2560.....Rogers: 1316.

There's just not a good way to split up classifications. Before going to the new formula of splitting evenly between classifications, 2A was just too small. We had like half as many as 1A and 4A. I don't have good answer. Mount Baker and Blaine go down next year. It may help them some in football, but I don't see it making it much easier in hoops.

 

[Oldshoes]

Warrant did not Marysville-Getchel take some of those numbers? Are those numbers the current ones or the before Getchel came into existance????

 

[Warrant3]

It's possible they are not current. The next largest 4A is South Kitsap at 2334. The point being that there is a significant disparity in size from the top to the bottom in 4A.

 

[borderite2000]

I still think that the best way to deal with it is to create a new class. Less teams in each one but it would help with the numbers so schools are playing teams close to their size.

Oldshoes, this place used to be a pretty happin' place back in the day. After Mike W died it really has gotten quiet.
This post was edited on 11/13 10:12 PM by borderite2000

 

[TeethPrice]

Co-sign Borderite...no reason for football to have the same classification as girls soccer (just taking one sport for example, could be any other sport really). It's a different beast and should be treated as such.

 

[scotty2020]

I agree that adding another classification (5A) might be a good idea. You could cut down 2A by at least 100, and 3A by another hundred. Maybe start 4A around 1050 and end it between 1350-1400. The 5A classification would be above that. Not many schools above 1600 students

 

[col-pul]

For some reason this wouldn't post right with breaks so I posted the post that was here as a reply to this post.
This post was edited on 11/14 4:40 PM by col-pul

 

[col-pul]

Warrant3, we got to disagree on this because the measure of athletic talent odds, if you assume even distribution over the state student population, would be figured as a ratio of the total population. For example, a school with 100 students has a chance of 1.0 of having 1 in 100 athlete and a school with 200 would have a 2.0 chance. That is to say a school with an enrolment of 200 is twice as likely to have a 100 in a hundred athlete as a school with 100 students.

Size differential between smallest and largest.

4A 1.945%
3A 1.198
2A 2.109
1A 2.466
2B 2.245

So the only classification with a smaller range is 3A, whose numerical range of 217 is less than half that of 2A's range, in fact less than the numerical range of 1A’s 304.

I would also note that only two 4A schools have a larger range than 1.441, Marysville-Pilchuck & South Kitsap. Rogers and Rogers only have a spread of 580 students, about the same as the whole 2A spread of 573.

Where the WIAA messed up with realignment was messing with the Bs, who didn't want to be split in the first place, instead of adding a 5A classification at the top. If they'd have done that and pinched a little here and there they could have ended up with equal size classification, which is a good thing, with every classification well under 2.0.

 

[Oldshoes]

Just background fodder from the Yak Republic about the WIAA and their descisions who WERE ORIGINALLY working for and from the schools up......now that it is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ they work from their salaries down, make BS calls against complaints from the coaches and schools. I don't really have much repsect for the Green Coats anymore as that ended in Yakima a few yaers ago. History....I have been going to State Championships since 1975 starting in the comfy confines of the UPS Field House watching Cashmere and MVP Kieth Collins coached by Hall O Famer Bill Kelly win the 1A State Basketball Title.

Check out Colbrese's pay, NOT CHUMP CHANGE!!!!!!!!!

Many athletic directors and coaches say the new format was pushed through over their objections after, they say, WIAA officials publicly intimated for months that no major changes were coming in the near future.



"I’ve heard that, and those people are just looking for some kind of conspiracy that doesn’t exist," Colbrese said, adding that as recently as last February WIAA staffers themselves didn’t believe the change would happen this quickly.



"I’ve been pushing for years to push for this but the board wasn’t ready," he said. "And lo and behold, the board said we need to make a change."

The change has raised a lot of hackles, particularly among smaller-school administrators.



"What frustrates me is I think somebody has gotten the wrong perception of the WIAA," Toutle Lake (Class 2B) athletic director Eric Swanson said. "My understanding is the WIAA works for schools, and it’s supposed to be a bottom-up type of deal. To me, it’s become a top-down, where it’s the WIAA making decisions. It’s not the schools having a voice.

"It’s for the WIAA. That’s exactly what it is."



Based on the WIAA’s tax forms ? which are readily available online because of its nonprofit status ? the association annually receives roughly $1.1 million in membership fees from its nearly 400 member high schools (and about the same number of middle and junior high schools). The rest of its $4.2 million budget is generated by athletic championships and special events.

The WIAA annually spends about $3 million on program expenses and pays about $1.2 million annually in salaries and benefits. The highest-paid employee is Colbrese, who made $178,579 in 2008-09 after 6.5 percent increases in back-to-back years, according to the latest available WIAA tax records.

Colbrese’s salary isn’t out of line with others heading similar associations, especially considering his lengthy tenure. The average 2008-09 salary for his job in the 10 states closest to Washington’s population was $168,504.




Of the 121 coaches, athletic directors, principals and superintendents polled by the Herald-Republic ? representing schools in all classifications and all districts ? 56 said they would have preferred the formats to go unchanged; 31 favored the new format; and 26 wanted the large-classification schools to go to the new format while letting the small schools keep their traditional four-day, 16-team tournaments. Eight said they’d take a wait-and-see attitude.



Of 23 coaches polled, only one liked the change. That’s not surprising; the Washington Interscholastic Basketball Coaches Association issued a statement "in strong disagreement" with the changes. Association president Nalin Sood believes the new format penalizes the smaller classifications for large schools’ failure to generate fan excitement about their teams.



"I don’t like it one bit," said Sood, who is a boys basketball coach at Mountlake Terrace, one of the largest schools in the 3A classification. "What they should have done is change it for the big schools and not for the small schools. And (my) rationale is, you guys put yourself into this situation ? and by you guys, I mean ourselves, the 3A and 4A schools. That’s on us."



The boys basketball coach and athletic director at one of those small schools, Class 1A Onalaska’s Dennis Bower, said the new format gives his players less of a chance to reach final-eight play in Yakima, an experience he said they would remember for a lifetime.


"From a selfish standpoint, (the new format) limits the opportunity for us to get to state ? also, specifically of getting to Yakima," Bower said. "I think Yakima does the best job ? well, I know they do ? of hosting and putting on state tournaments. I grew up in Spokane, and the (Spokane) Coliseum and the B’s were by far the best tournament. But Yakima has surpassed them, just by how the community of Yakima ? the hotels, the businesses, the restaurants, and the people at the dome ? how they take care of teams.



"I know for a fact that Yakima has really worked with the WIAA, in terms of lease agreements and the concessions and everything else, to help the WIAA be more profitable with the tournaments. Losing another weekend (of state basketball) will adversely affect Yakima.
"And I feel bad for that."
This post was edited on 11/14 5:53 PM by Oldshoes
This post was edited on 11/14 5:54 PM by Oldshoes

 

[Warrant3]

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about Col-pul? Your last post made alot of sense. What I can say is that before we moved to this new method of classification, in which each classification has the same number of participating schools, 2A was shrinking every year.

 

[Warrant3]

This place rocked before Mike W, the Dictator, took over. Initially he did a good job over cleaning up some of the out-of-control profanity, but before long he became way too heavy handed If you didn't agree with Mike's narrow few on any topic, you got deleted.

 

[col-pul]

Sorry, I guess I missread what you entended. Yes, true middle level schools are becoming a doughnut hole in the enrolment numbers. Now, I'm not saying that the current classification system is unfair, only that it does not meet the WIAA objectives. If you're going to do classifications to level the playing field you don't just grade from one end of the field. If you don't care about about making the classifications competetively level then just go to the old Indian basketball style system and say size is just a thing like gene pool, affluence, local emphasis and setting and everyone's in the same classification. But the current classification system is kind of a bait and switch.

The problem was that 4A had like 90 schools and 2A had like 52 so IF they'd split 4A into 4A & 5A then each of those would have had 45 or 46 schools and you could have adjusted from there dropping the smallest few 3A'ers and moving the larger 3A'ers up. 1A had 60'ish schools already so you wouldn't have had to do much with them and the B's were fine the way they were.

What I don't really like the most about the current system is 2A use to be the largest small school classification and now it's the smallest large school classification. In my 'perfect little world' B, 1A, 2A were the small schools and 3A, 4A and 5A were the large schools

 

[col-pul]

I thought Mike did a great job. When he was running the show preps was adding pages per day in posts with 2A and 1A getting a good deal of coverage by the site. Now, Mike did delete posts, believe it or not he even deleted a few of mine, but it's wasn't random. Most post that got nixed were either rumors and innuendo or R rated. Half the site it was since Mike's passing.

Now WApreps is Oregonpreps lite only without pride parade. Love those Oregon guys working it in those cute little leather chaps.

 

[TricoGuy]

However, the only reason 4A's have the largest gap is the 2 or 3 schools above 2000. The 2A ceiling is too high. It has to do with the number of available athletes for sports. A small 4A has about 460 students per grade 10-12 - 230 boys per grade. Compare this to a small 2A - 175 per grade - 90 boys. The pool is so much larger to pick from for the 4A. Even the small 3A's have a decent size pool to pick from 185 boys per grade. There is not much difference between 185 & 230. But 185 is more than double 90. This difference is HUGE in regard to quality athletes to choose from. Large schools can 'reload' rather than 'rebuild'. Smaller schools have to 'rebuild' as athletic classes move through and go through athletic cycles. This happens at larger schools also, but there is a larger effect at smaller schools (those under 600-650). I do not know if there is a good solution, but I would rather go back to the old system rather than the new one. Also, there would probably be less issues with this if there were less schools that had opted up from 2A last count which forced the 2A ceiling to rise so much in the first place.

 

[innocentbystanderLL]

While we're on the subject of enrollment and classification, we should at least touch this subject. I've heard rumors (not entirely verified) that schools like Bellvue, O'Dea, and Skyline, as well as Lakes and Archbishop Murphy, actively recruit students to their high schools, at least from their immediate area. Is this true, and if it is, how is it fair that those schools play other, non-recruit schools?

 

[The Count]

I don't think Skyline, Bellevue and other public schools really recruit players. Have you looked at what it costs to live in those school districts? What they do have in common with O'Dea and Murphy is fantastic coaching (like Lynden, Prosser, Tumwater and Pullman over the years). Keeping good coaches does take funding, both from levies and from boosters. Same is true for good teachers.

On the other hand, the private schools have to recruit every student that attends in order to have a student body at all, and convince them that paying 10K or 12K or more is worth the education. ATM has been discussed on this board ad infinitum. Some kids over they year HAVE gone to Murphy becasue of a connection to Ennis, (now Ward or defensive coordinator Schmidt) or a hope of playing football. Most would not likely have been recruited out of 8th grade by anyone. Some surely would have. Shiloh Keo (who is now on the Houston Texans roster) has always been a great athlete, but loved Coach Ennis when he came to the school. I know a few of the kids that have attended Murphy and became great players. When they were in 8th grade, several had NEVER put on a football helmut. We know kids who have gone both to Murphy and Jackson HS. Our youngest two kids went to Jackson HS. The difference between the two schools is purely discipline and work ethic. Jackson has a huge pool from which to draw, and has had some stellar athletes. Some have gone on to D-1 schools. A smaller percent have succeeded than school grads of programs where they really learned to work. Why? They did not learn the discipline to be true competitors. Just ask some of their college coaches. Blanchet "recruits" its students as well. Yet they are never very good at football. They have been very good at baseball and volleyball. Is that because they only recruit for baseball, or girls volleyball? Of course, the only common denominator is good coaching. That is where the competitive disadvantage is. Lakewood's athletic program has really grwon so positively through great leadership. The community support is fantastic, and making it a real advantage when they play at home.

If there is a fair critique of the private schools, it is that becasue ther can choose who enters, they can eleiminate some issues that public schools can not. Most private schools do a poor job with students who have learning struggles, or don't try at all. They can get rid of students that don't behave - much more easily than in the public school system. I wonder how that relates to the overall mission of the religiously- based private schools?. The entrance requirments favor those who can handle college prep classes. The other question, left for another forum, is whether some focus on sports to the detriment of their own mission. Certainly sports can enhance the spiritual growth of young people, but it often has been the opposite lesson.

I was glad to read some of the positive things written about how the kids from both Lynden and Murphy handled the championship result. Winning gracefully is often underrated. Lynden sure acted like deserving champs. The Murphy coaches and kids did acted like champs as well, even in defeat. Kudos to both on a great game, and display of the character that says the best about high school sports!

 

[innocentbystanderLL]

Goncharoff must be a hell of a coach then.
Well put. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[B-E Fan]

I've never bought into the arguement of private schools recruiting. Good programs will self recruit, which is what happens at schools like Odea, ATM or recently Cascade Christian. Youth wanting to play football in those areas are obviously going to choose a competitive program if they can afford it. (There are also scholarships and other financial aid available) I also think that public schools can have a distinct advantage in that many times when there is only one school in a town, the kids build a bond through youth leagues and grade school that is very advantageous in any team sport.

I do however, believe there should be a formula in place to address classification of schools with an all male or female population.
This post was edited on 12/13 10:10 AM by B-E Fan