Toledo 59 Mt Baker47 final

[sportsfan503]

Toledo advances

 

[basketballbuff]

I waited till this morning to post this message as I wanted to think carefully about an incident that happened during the game before I commented on it. Toledo came out and looked like they were going to end this one early going up 19-6 after 1. But MB would not go away. Every time it looked like MB would get some momentum and cut it to 6 or so, Toledo would push it back to 13-15. It was a very physical game from start to finish but the style of physical was completely different. Toledo came out and played "fundamentally" physical, up in your face, bodied up, aggressive man to man while MB employed much of the same tactics and a few more twists to the style of ball I saw in Lynwood. The posting made in reference to my comments about all the flopping, pulling people down, and the response that MB is known as rough but often dirty style of play comes to mind. Most of what occured was acceptable as MB was doing what they'd been coached and no one was going to get hurt in the process. MB payed dearly in fouls with their style as the officiating was good, 2 college level officials who've been around the southern part of the state for yrs and one respected official who just does HS basketball, all of whom have state experience at all levels. In one series under Toledo's basket in the 3rd, it semed like they'd had enough as they called MB for at least 5 consecutive fouls, 2 of which occured before the ball even made it inbounds for all the little things they like to do. The one incident that caused me to consider how to approach commmenting on was in the 4th qrt. Toledo had just scored and went into a 2/2/1 press. The Rakoz kid was in the back and I was sitting in a corner so had a great look. The MB kid in the back row went over to the bench, the coach said something to him and the kid turned and ran straight at Rakoz, about 20 ft away who was looking downcourt. It's fortunate Rakoz turned his head at the last second and saw him coming because he got unloaded on in a football blocking dummy practice fashion and only got clipped but sent to the floor and slid about 6 ft. The official was slightly upcourt and didn't see it happen until Rakoz hit the floor. The only response Rakoz had was to laugh, it was something you just can't imagine happening on the court. A physical style of play where you take your chances on what you do and whether the officials call it is one thing. Going out and purposely trying to take a kid out on the court in that fashion is uncalled for and I can't believe any kid could call themselves an athlete that would do that. I would like to think the coach didn't have a part in it, but I watched the whole thing unfold from just across the court in front of me. I know the coach up there has a lot of respect and is known for getting the most out of his kids and the MB kids did leave it all on the court and I commend them for that. But to turn a kid loose on another like that in an apparent effort to either injure him or hope his response was such he would retaliate and get T'd up or worse is unacceptable and his credibility to coach kids has to be questioned. This posting is sure to garner some comments, but it happened just the way I described it and I can't think of any other way to interpret it from where I sat. Good luck to the Toledo Indians in the state tourney and congrats to the MB kids on a great season.

 

[Warrant3]

Interesting comments. As you might expect the Mount Baker faithful see things a little differently. They think there was some of "home cooking" with the 22 to 10 differential in fouls called. It sounds like Baker hung tough until about half way through the 4th quarter. The local paper said it was 47-44 with 5:17 left in the game. Best of luck to Toledo.
This post was edited on 2/24 10:14 AM by Warrant3

 

[Bill Bored]

Buff, I can completely visualize what your describing. Being from Whatcom County and following basketball for the past 14 years, I have witnessed a lot of the physicality from this program year in and year out. I really do applaud Coach Gray for getting his boys to never give up and play tough year in and year out especially when he doesn't have the best "basketball" talent year in and year out. I do think he is a good x's and o's coach. But I saw them play several times this year and I have to say that they were the absolute dirtiest high school team I have ever seen. Way worse than normal. I witnessed elbows to the ribs, purposely tripping players and many pull downs on rebounds with most of the action "behind" the officials eyes. If you just focused on one of the offenders during a game and didn't watch the ball you would be amazed at what went on and even complaining to officials that they got fouled. Classic Baker.

The officials up here knew what they were to expect from them this year but you just can't call everything you see. I think they let Baker play overly physical because they knew that is their style. At least it appeared that way to me. I would hope that the coaching staff at Baker would never teach all of this but it happens every year so what can you say. I'm sure that most coaches up here in the NWC were just happy to get thru a game with their players still in tact after a Baker match.

 

[basketballbuff]

They did cut it to from 13 to 3 with that time left but it bounced back to 15 in about 2 min. MB did a great job making runs and giving themselves opportunities but couldn't keep it going. The was some discrepency in the # of fouls called but the types of fouls that were called were completely different. MB got a # called on punches, elbows, grabbing people and pulling them down, just out of the limits types of offences. It was interesting to me that a # of the fouls called were done against subs off the MB bench. It was kinda like go in there and see if you can get in their heads kinda stuff with the types of fouls they committed. As I said before, I guess you have to do what you think you have do to compete, but I think more time spent in practice on fundamentals rather than teaching the type of play that went on would better prepare kids. And there's only one place that style comes from and that's the head coach. For the most part, none of what occurred was going to hurt anyone, just playing way outside the limits but the cheap hit that was put on the Rakoz kid in the backcourt was unexcusable and there's really no place in sports for that type of thing to happen. Now, I'm open to someone trying to explain it to me and about 150 other people who came out of their seats when it happened that it wasn't what it looked like, but it was what it was until proven otherwise. Once again, the MB kids played hard and left it all on the court and you have to respect them for that.

 

[Warrant3]

I'm calling BS on both of you guys. Claiming Mount Baker was "punching" and "tackling" players and there were no technicals called? Lol. Claiming Coach Gray told his player to tackle another player? That's complete BS. You don't even know the man. Claiming they are the "dirtiest team" ever. Give me a break. Coach Gray is the Dean of Coaches in our Conference. He has been coaching continuosly at the same school in our Conference longer than any other coach. He's respected among his peers. He's respected by his players and their families. He's also aware of the "tag" that has been placed on his teams.

 

[chuckles35]

Warrant, would you agree that they are a "dirty" team?

 

[crazykid#22]

Warrant I agree with you. I think that maybe the southwest region of the state isn't use to the more physical play of the NWC teams. Yes Mt. Baker may be a little "dirty" but thats a part of the game. Chuckles I think that Mt. Baker may be dirty, but no worse than some of the NWC teams.

 

[Bill Bored]

Warrant....I didn't say of all time but I know what I saw. You can't convince me otherwise.

 

[Warrant3]

I understand Bill, and you were complimentary as well. There's no denying they have the "Rep."

 

[addicted2ball]

Listen, I played against Mount Baker for three years in High School. My dad has coached against Gray for 15-20 years now, and i referee for Gray's tournaments in the summer and have gotten to know him. Mount Baker has always been a dirty team, I don't doubt that. I also can never say I've liked them. Never have, probably never will. I also don't doubt that what you saw happened. However, I do doubt that it was Coach Gray telling them to do that. I would put money on that exchange being a typical Coach-Player exchange, and the player turning around and seeing an oppurtunity. I can think of many times where a Baker player took something to far in a game where Gray immediatly yanked the kid for the rest of the game. I can also think of many times where it seemed like they were trying to injure people. That is the culture the Baker kids grow up with, but I do not believe Gray encourages it at all, nor do I believe he had anything to do with the incident. I do believe that you saw what you saw. Just my opinion.

 

[basketballbuff]

Ok I generated some comments like I knew I would. I was very careful not to come home and fire off my first impression of the Toledo/MB game but waited overnight to think it thru. When I made the comment kids were throwing punches, I didn't mean literally, just those little jabs to the kidneys kids level occasionally, along with the forearm shiver as we used to affectionately call it. The hooking of the arms and pulling kids over, which we saw about 8-10 of in the Cascade C/MB. I agree that this goes on to an extent in all games, but that in itself doesn't really constitute a physical style of play because most teams don't do it to the extent that MB does. What caused all the grief for Mt Baker down south is they made it a very large part of their approach to the game and the officials didn't put up with it. Probably 3/4 of the fouls leveled against them were of this nature. I've taken time to research coach Gray and he has had considerable success in a very competitive league and his kids are very well prepared obviously or he wouldn't have this success. I never took issue with all the little digs M/B attempted, just couldn't figure out why they couldn't "get it" and stop drawing so much attention to themselves and play the game. I don't know what occurred between Gray and the player who went over and then came out and threw the football block on the Rakoz kid. The player may have taken it upon himself to do this, I'll never know. The reason it wasn't called and he wasn't tossed is because the official was slightly upcourt and Rakoz was in the back in the 2/2/1 and it was out of his vision. Giving credit to Gray, there was a foul at the other end after Toledo picked the ball and Gray did take the kid out of the game at that point. My earlier points made on Sun were simply an effort to understand the mentality with which the M/B kids approach the game and to determine if this is the kind of play Gray consistently promotes. Because it is so difficult to get a read on teams throughout the state, this forum is a great place to get educated and to have interesting dialogue. By the way Warrant really enjoyed your response to the "Woods" comment about sobbering up. Obviously likes Toledo so I gotta like the guy but he was a little over the top.

 

[daretobe]

my 2 cents is that the NWC League top-to-bottom has a rep as a rough league and the officials up there generally tolerate a more physical style of play than I have seen in other places. baker may be on the more physical side in that league, but by no means an outlier. i have heard many comments over the years about teams from out of the area hating the Mt Vernon draw against NWC teams because of the Whatcom County officials tolerance for physical play. the good teams just deal with it, but it takes some adjusting to.

 

[addicted2ball]

Yea there definitely is alot of truth to that daretobe. Especially in regards to the NWC as a whole...but at the same time this was definitely one of the worst Baker teams I've seen with that kind of physical/dirty play, and it can definitely be a shock to teams outside of the NWC because they just aren't used to that kind of play.

 

[daretobe]

Toledo probably earned more than just the W in that game and it will probably help them in yakima

 

[Warrant3]

Lol. Well, I'm just going to have to respectfully disagree. If Baker was "dirty," how would you describe Sehome? Sehome was the most physical team in our Conference this season. That's not just my opinion, that is also the opinion of Coach Roper of Lynden. I'm sure some of you watched the Mariners rough up LC in the Lyncs final regular season game.
This post was edited on 2/25 6:27 PM by Warrant3

 

[addicted2ball]

Sure did...I should have clarified sorry Warrant....I would describe Baker as the dirtiest. I agree that Sehome was the most physical team, because they were physical and smart about it. They were smart-physical. Lynden's gotta be right there also.

 

[Bill Bored]

Question. Why can't Gray clean it up after all these years? Does he not watch his film?

 

[hoopdude3]

Baker is not the dirtiest team in the league, I can think of 2-3 teams "dirtier" than them. I really think that all these "dirty teams" just play really hard and don't want to let other teams have anything come easy. In regards to the Toledo fan who questioned coach Gray and baker, I listened to the broadcast and the announcers made it sound like Toledo was the "dirty" team and they were getting away with murder. At one point they went off about how the big kid from Toledo elbowed a baker kid in the face and made him bleed, and the baker kid was the one called for the foul. They were flabbergasted by the officiating.

I respect all of the teams from the NWC, and appreciate that all the teams (even a finesse program like squally) know how to play tough.

 

[addicted2ball]

It's funny how you consider Squali the finesse team int he NWC (and I agree) and in any other league they'd be considered one of the more physical. NWC basketball man. You can't find better competition as a 1A or a 2A school

 

[basketballbuff]

The. Elbowing incident you were referring to was on a rebound a mb kid jumped up in the big kids space and was just pawing at him trying to get to the ball and he ripped the ball over the top from ear to ear.elbows never came out the mb kid was where he shouldn't have been and got clipped. Easy call the big never went for the face at all the kid just was to close and hammering him

 

[hoopdude3]

Okay, just repeating what I heard on the radio. I wasn't there to question what the broadcasters stated. I think being from a different part of the state and being used to basketball played in a different manner just makes us see the game through different lenses.

 

[scottiepride]

Hi-

Film it -- post it on Youtube you would be amazed at the adjustments made by coaches who teach teams to be "dirty" . Especially if a kid gets hurt---think Connell last year! Film doesnt lie--- he said she said wont go anywhere--- film it and keep filming it and POST it ---also a great way to expose homer officials--

Just a thought!

 

[basketballbuff]

Thats fine. If yuove followed any of my posts you would see I don't condone any kid doing anything that would injure another player no matter what team. I'm just a retired old fart who officiated and coached in some capacity all the way thru the small college ranks for forty plus yrs. Now I just sit and watch and am from the sw area so am partial but don't feel biased at all, no reason to be. Sometimes it even drives my friends down here crazy. I wish all the teams at state the best of luck, it's an achievement to even be there. Enjoy it to the fullest.