I thought the officiating in general was uneven. At times they seem to let everything go; at times they were very ticky-tacky, though I never felt they were trying to steal the show, which is good. They might have been the all star refs in each of the represented regions, but not sure mixing groups who are used to very different styles of ball is ideal. At times, it seemed the pace of some of the games was too much for some of them. How did they determine who got to go and then, how to pair them up?
Officiating
- Thread starter daretobe
- Start date
I think you are spot on with your observations. "Uneven" sums it up. I talked with an official from the NWC who was there to watch the Tournament He said the biggest problem is working with officials you haven't worked with before. The chemistry isn't there. The timing is off some times. I can tell you there were none from the NWC. How about the Cascade Conference?
I agree about the Officiating. I also thought that many of the calls that were made, the whistle was blown very late. It seemed as though the refs waited to see if the ball went in the hoop before making a call many times.
For me, keeping stats distracts me just enough from the game to make it a whole lot more enjoyable when there is sub par officiating. I went from being the person responsible for critique of the referees to paying better attention to all the players instead of the striped shirts. If you are a coach or AD and have a bellowing parent, I recommend a "appoint them as a stats volunteer" intervention. I know in retrospect that I could have used something to preoccupy me for the tourney game for which I was not busy keeping scoring updates.
Officiating is always part of the game and hopefully, it's good enough that you do not notice it. But when you do, it is usually just going to mean that your team needs to outplay 8 guys on the floor instead of just 5. That's where a lot of you here talked about the importance of preparing the kids to be poised and composed.
Were there lots of times I was noticing it last weekend? Yes. It was usually due to one of two things: Consistency of what got called on one end versus the other, and calling questionable fouls from the opposite side of the court without sight lines to actually see the called offense. Some would probably argue it was better at the Sun dome than the Tacoma dome.
Dare2b's assessment was right on. Officiating crews from different regions would probably benefit from a more formal preflight checklist that they can go through to make sure they are on the same page before the game starts. They already do this to some extent, but encouraging them to communicate more pregame couldn't hurt. Consistency is key, with the exception to clamp down if things are escalating out of hand. I am sure the head office will review a lot of tape to determine if they need to make any procedural or training changes.
[edit for typo]
This post was edited on 3/4 2:59 PM by FilmDoesn'tLie
Officiating is always part of the game and hopefully, it's good enough that you do not notice it. But when you do, it is usually just going to mean that your team needs to outplay 8 guys on the floor instead of just 5. That's where a lot of you here talked about the importance of preparing the kids to be poised and composed.
Were there lots of times I was noticing it last weekend? Yes. It was usually due to one of two things: Consistency of what got called on one end versus the other, and calling questionable fouls from the opposite side of the court without sight lines to actually see the called offense. Some would probably argue it was better at the Sun dome than the Tacoma dome.
Dare2b's assessment was right on. Officiating crews from different regions would probably benefit from a more formal preflight checklist that they can go through to make sure they are on the same page before the game starts. They already do this to some extent, but encouraging them to communicate more pregame couldn't hurt. Consistency is key, with the exception to clamp down if things are escalating out of hand. I am sure the head office will review a lot of tape to determine if they need to make any procedural or training changes.
[edit for typo]
This post was edited on 3/4 2:59 PM by FilmDoesn'tLie
Putting five good basketball players together and playing doesn't mean they are a team. Same is true for refs. If they can figure out a way to make it better than just showing up at the Dome and officaiting, it should be done. maybe, having them work together in District tournaments where one game isn't life or death might help them work better in Yakima. There were a lot of close games where the outcome was influenced by the uneveness of the officiating. One game late, the BE big man was T'd for an elbow that was very,very borderline from my vantage point and resulted in two free throws and the ball for Sequim and it clearly changed the momentum of the game. later in the day, an LC player floored a Kings kid on a cheap shot elbow and it was a "normal" foul even though the officials "team" conferred and it was pretty obvious to most it was a cheap shot and might hvae warranted ejection.
From the officiating crews I saw, Lewis County and Longview only had one that I knew of and he called a girls game. Back in my officiating days, I did a couple of state tournies in Spokane. We met as a large group and were assigned games with mixed 2 man crews and it changed each game. We were evaluated the first 3 days and then those with the highest evals worked the final day. What was interesting was you saw your evals after the game and sometimes one evaluator would critique you for something that another eval would give you a pass on. I think this reflects of the same mentality of mixing crews, officials from different associations call the game differently and this leads to an inconsistency in the types of fouls called from time to time. And with the 3 man mechanics this is even more evident as the rotation is completely different than the old 2 man was. Sometimes with todays 3 man rotation, you can have the same official stuck in one position for a long time during the game and therefore the fouls may not seem to be fair in a sense that it's not consistent at both ends because he's not rotating out.
In a third incident of elbows, the Rakoz kid was called for an excessive swinging of the elbows in the title game. He had the ball chinned and it looked like he was trying to rip the ball away from a player on his right, he only did so in one direction and he didn't go over the top with it which would have made it legal. It was only ruled as an infraction, loss of ball.
In a third incident of elbows, the Rakoz kid was called for an excessive swinging of the elbows in the title game. He had the ball chinned and it looked like he was trying to rip the ball away from a player on his right, he only did so in one direction and he didn't go over the top with it which would have made it legal. It was only ruled as an infraction, loss of ball.
Daretobe I agree with almost every post you place on this board. This one I could not diagree more. It happened virtually in front of where I sat. #25 cut for the ball and as he did 24 stepped in front with great in your face deny defense right as #25 was reaching out to call for the ball. The forearm and elbow grazed #24 and he went down. I may not even agree with the foul call but completely understand why it was called. I do agree the result did not look good but the player did not come close to any form of cheap shot. You sound like you may be close to the great coaching staff at Kings. Ask one of them for the tape. You will see I am correct.
I was hoping on this forum we would avoid going down the road of arguing specific calls. It will get really old fast, if we set the precedent to go through stuff that did not necessarily affect game outcomes. I am not trying squelch your opinions here, but it can be pretty boring stuff for folks that don't remember the play or have access to film. I've been guilty of my share of bad sportsmanship for yelling at refs for a bad call, but the internet has a really good memory and we all will set a better example for the young men who do actually monitor this message board if we take the higher road on this topic area. We are fortunate for an "ask the ref" forum under the message board index link at the top, where some officials openly communicate, if you have specific rules questions, interpretations and point of emphasis queries.
2old4this: I appreciate your posts as well. The thread is about what I felt was a general uneveness in officiating, rather than taking shots about specific plays and the two examples I gave were what I thought were examples of this. If you were right there, I will take your word for it. I didn't see it when it happened and I haven't seen any video of it, but people who were close said they thought it excessive and borne of frustration. But it doesn't jibe with what I have seen from LC players over the years, so I'll accept your word and apologize.
film: these kids put in hours and years of their life for a shot at state and they deserve the best the system can provide. I don't think the current system of assigning refs from different regions to work together without any warm-up games is good. state is the culmination of a lot of hard work on the part of every player and these are the best teams. yet we collect the best individual refs and say, you're going with Joe from Spokane and Bill from Yakima, so chat for five minutes and go to it. and I think kids deserve better. I am not complaining about calls or anything, rather calling attention to the fact that there are three teams on the floor in every game and people tend to shrug their shoulders on and say, "oh well, they're only human. players miss shots, too, what's the big deal?" well, the refs are experienced and have been doing it a long time, so they should get it right way more often than not. and refs don't have other refs playing defense against them trying to make them miss, so it isn't the same as a 16 year old missing a jump shot. we should have ALL the "teams" prepare for state, not just the players. just my opinion, sorry if it is boring to you.
film: these kids put in hours and years of their life for a shot at state and they deserve the best the system can provide. I don't think the current system of assigning refs from different regions to work together without any warm-up games is good. state is the culmination of a lot of hard work on the part of every player and these are the best teams. yet we collect the best individual refs and say, you're going with Joe from Spokane and Bill from Yakima, so chat for five minutes and go to it. and I think kids deserve better. I am not complaining about calls or anything, rather calling attention to the fact that there are three teams on the floor in every game and people tend to shrug their shoulders on and say, "oh well, they're only human. players miss shots, too, what's the big deal?" well, the refs are experienced and have been doing it a long time, so they should get it right way more often than not. and refs don't have other refs playing defense against them trying to make them miss, so it isn't the same as a 16 year old missing a jump shot. we should have ALL the "teams" prepare for state, not just the players. just my opinion, sorry if it is boring to you.
Thanks daretobe. I would agree the result did not look good. I heartily agree with what you and Warrant3 said about the inconsistancy. I had very similar conversations with a couple of old dog officials at the dome and they said exactly the same thing. Chemistry is important in sports and in reffing. The is going to be flow problems when guys who have not worked together do so. We did see it in nearly every game.
The issue becomes how can it be changed. I don't see an easy answer. We may be having this same post in exactly a year. There is just really no way we can change it. Maybe a longer pregame debriefing going over specifics of play and what all 3 will agree to call. I know they do that in the Seattle Association.
"film" I also agree with you. Trying to argue a specific call is a little boring and hard to prove either way. I will refrain from responding in the future.
The issue becomes how can it be changed. I don't see an easy answer. We may be having this same post in exactly a year. There is just really no way we can change it. Maybe a longer pregame debriefing going over specifics of play and what all 3 will agree to call. I know they do that in the Seattle Association.
"film" I also agree with you. Trying to argue a specific call is a little boring and hard to prove either way. I will refrain from responding in the future.
Richardlb you are very correct. I do believe however since the WOA head Todd Stordahl works in the WIAA building, the 2 governing boodies could work together on more preperation. I think that was the point Warrant3 was making. Todd is very good at what he does. I think he would be open to this suggestion.
Again I do not think the officiating was poor. It is a tough job. I think the suggestions made are to help officials be even better for the kids. I don't see any of the comments being overly critical.
Again I do not think the officiating was poor. It is a tough job. I think the suggestions made are to help officials be even better for the kids. I don't see any of the comments being overly critical.
I think he said Todd Stordahl is in the same building. So the internet begs to differ...
WIAA
435 Main Ave S Renton WA (425) 687-8585
WOA
Todd Stordahl
435 Main Avenue South
Renton, WA 98057
425-687-8009
This post was edited on 3/5 4:27 PM by FilmDoesn'tLie
WIAA
435 Main Ave S Renton WA (425) 687-8585
WOA
Todd Stordahl
435 Main Avenue South
Renton, WA 98057
425-687-8009
This post was edited on 3/5 4:27 PM by FilmDoesn'tLie
It is apparent from your posts over the last few years that you have an official connection to the WIAA, either as a voting, non-voting member, administrative assistant or what have you. Saying the WOA has no connection to the WIAA doesn't make sense. After all, the WIAA pays the officials. If the the WIAA wants the WOA to make changes, you can bet there will be changes.
Like 2old4this said, we're not attempting to hammer the officiating, we are looking for ways it could be improved.
This post was edited on 3/6 3:20 PM by Warrant3
Like 2old4this said, we're not attempting to hammer the officiating, we are looking for ways it could be improved.
This post was edited on 3/6 3:20 PM by Warrant3
Richard, That was a real Ticky-Tack kind of call about Mr. Stordahl's differing office location, one the rest of us were going to overlook so that play could continue. Whether it is in the same building or across the street, 2old4this' point is still valid about the collaboration so whether he said in or near did not affect the outcome of his logic. You and I should really be on the same page with this forum fact moderation thing to be consistent. You know, we should have probably met together before the tourney so we were in agreement on which message board infractions were egregious enough for us to blow the whistle. 